RIP. From what I saw, he seemed like a genuinely good man
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I don't know much about him but what i quicly read he is pro lhbq (which obviously is a thing in the church), saying refugees are not a burden but a gift. Yet he is anti abortion and the right of ending your own life.
He sure has been the most progressive so far.
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Sparked a lot of controversies among other Christians and denominations when he talked about LGBTQAI+ and I quote: "Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They're children of God ... Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it."
I agree with him. We shouldn't segretate, exclude people based on their differences. But must be viewed as murdering, lying, adultery or any other form of sin and not endorsed, but corrected.
Salvation comes for any man or woman, no matter what mistakes or sin they have committed. So as Christians, we are called to love and support one another, including non-believers, and look at the problem being the sin, not the person.
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There is nothing to be corrected about homosexuality. The world would be a better place if religion would stay out of people's underwear and bedroom.
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It was never a problem if sexuality in general stayed private. It blew out of proportion on discussions nowadays because both sides like to point out the other side is wrong about their view points. Disagreement doesn't mean we need to hate one another.
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It was never a problem if sexuality in general stayed private.
You mean when people didn't hold hands, or kissed their partner on the street, back to the puritan times?
Because it's already happening every day, and almost every single piece of media for a looong while, but that's the "okay" sexuality, because heterosexual. These moral outrage about "public sexuality" is just a dog whistle for homophobes, I bet you don't complain about random kissing couples.
Disagreement doesn't mean we need to hate one another.
But is it okay to refer back to the conversion camps that are cruel, inhuman, doesn't work, and leave people with lasting trauma? Where is the kindness, the compassion in that that you preach? Or does it only extend to the people you deem worthy of it?
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Adam is correct.^^^
I'd take it a step further though.
If that god is omniscient, omnipotent, and infallible, then literally everything is God's will regardless of what it is. And while being gay is obviously no crime, physically or spiritually, it wouldn't really matter if it was. All things are permitted. Because literally everything is God's will. Even the worst and most heinous acts are fine under God's umbrella.
If on the other hand, god isn't as powerful as people claim, then it's no god and it can F right off. Spoiler alert: according to Christians, God is always needing people to help him and is completely inept when left to its own devices. But obviously, there is no such thing as God. It's just a stupid fairy tale.. And the things people do in the name of a fairy tale is pretty disgusting. Such as ostracisizing people for loving who they love. You'd think Christians would be all for love, but nope.
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If that god is omniscient, omnipotent, and infallible, then literally everything is God's will regardless of what it is. And while being gay is obviously no crime, physically or spiritually, it wouldn't really matter if it was. All things are permitted. Because literally everything is God's will. Even the worst and most heinous acts are fine under God's umbrella.
You're misunderstanding free will with the will of God. They are not the same things. Yes, we are given free will to do whatever we wish, good or bad, but it's not because he is Omiscient and Omnipotent that we're allowed to do this. It's because He loves us enough to allow us to choose if we want to be with Him or not.
If on the other hand, god isn't as powerful as people claim, then it's no god and it can F right off. Spoiler alert: according to Christians, God is always needing people to help him and is completely inept when left to its own devices.
Please provide source to such claims. Where do you get such statements?
But obviously, there is no such thing as God. It's just a stupid fairy tale.. And the things people do in the name of a fairy tale is pretty disgusting. Such as ostracisizing people for loving who they love. You'd think Christians would be all for love, but nope.
I agree. People do all kind of wrong things of all kinds of fairy tales, even the ones that believe there isn't a God. We are not that different. We make mistakes. I'm not gonna just defend something that Christians did for thousands of years that was wrong. We're also not called just to be all for love. We are also called to be just, righteous, and honest. We are called to love one another, but hate the sin. That's the difference.
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Hey man, I hope you're well. I'm a Christian myself and some of what you say is correct. There is a lot many denominations get wrong. We are called to love and I really do try my best, regardless of the person. While I'm far from perfect, I continue to grow. And I believe you're entitled to an opinion, and I respect your opinion. But I thought I'd say that it's not a very nice thing to state that God is a stupid fairy tale. For me, He is as real as the toes on my feet and this phone I'm typing on, sometimes even more than them. I've had God work in my life and I really wouldn't be where I am without him. And I'm not trying to fight, but I believe there should be respect both ways. Maybe you were angry when you wrote this and you didn't mean to disrespect an entire group of people, and I get that. You've likely had a bad experience with a Christian, or know someone who has. I've also had, and so has my family and friends. At the end of the day, Christians are still people, like you and me. They're not perfect and they will hurt you. Becoming a Christian makes you whole, and it calls you to be greater than you are. But that's a journey and one I'll never end. I'll be mean, I'll get jealous, I will certainly get upset and grumpy. On top of that, I will never stop making mistakes. I've got some good qualities, but none that qualify me to be perfect, or even remotely so.
But yeah man, once again I mean no foul intent. I just found your statement around God being a fairy tale a bit jarring. All the best man, have a good one :)
(Also on the whole thing of things being permitted by God. I didn't understand that either when I first started. I had lots of questions that needed answering before I was going to become a Christian. Reason being, this God had some weird things he did and why would he even create us. Regardless, one of my questions was about how God could allow us to live this way, where we murder and steal and all that. Like if he knows everything, then he knew it would come to this. But here's the thing: one day when I have children, I am not going to control them their whole lives. I want them to be free and live a good life that they choose to live. But choosing that means I need to let them have free will; I should allow them the opportunity to do what they want. And that's just it, if I really loved them, then I'd give them free will. God loves everyone just as much as the other. That's a crazy statement. He lives a serial killer just as much as me. His heart aches for the serial killer too, because he is lost in this world. He so loved us that He gave us the free will and the capability to think and do what we want. And that ability has warped the world in a lot of ways.)
Sorry, went off on a tangent. Much love man, keep well :)
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But I thought I'd say that it's not a very nice thing to state that God is a stupid fairy tale.
It's not about being nice or not nice. It's just actual reality. The reason people are required to have faith is because there can never be proof of something that doesn't exist. And I find the topic of gods and the belief in them to be pretty silly where it's not outright harmful. Which I could really go into great detail about, but that seems counterproductive and largely a waste of time when talking to believers, as their goalposts will always shift to accommodate their beliefs.
That said, I recognize that people are going to believe whatever it is they believe in. At least you seem reasonable in your beliefs. Which is a refreshing deviation from the norm.
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Your reality is different from my reality, so it makes it an opinion. And it's okay for you to have a different opinion from mine. I'm just stating it wasn't as nice to hold my opinion as a stupid fairy tale. More so when I try to respect others opinions. There is likely a better way to state what you said that is less argumentative and therefore more conducive to a decent discussion. Not going to try debate all that you said, but I hear what you say.
But yeah man, was nice to read your viewpoint. I come from a Christian household but my parents by no mean pushed me into it or did anything weird, unfortunately, unlike many stories I've heard (And I think it's alright for parents to introduce kids into their religion, but it doesn't seem like it's always done right and a lot of them seem warped lol). Sort of found my own way here, but I've still been somewhat sheltered as I never got into much things of the world. Likely due to my lack of Internet interest lol. Was an introvert both in real life and online. I digress, as I stated, it was nice to read your viewpoint and the viewpoint of others. Wishing you nothing but the best :)
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Reality is reality for all people. Faith is not reality. It's faith. At one time in our lives we thought Santa claus, tooth fairy and so on were reality. We outgrew that but when we have kids of our own, we have faith in those fairy tales so our kids have that magical reality for themselves. Then they outgrow it but the cycle continues with their kids. Yet, god is the only faith based, non real thing many people thru many religions don't outgrow. I understand that because some people feel they need that faith to have a purpose or to not murder and commit crimes so they can have an afterlife... or so many other reasons.
When you say "your reality is not my reality", you sound like a flat earther, or bigfoot believer or science denier that are all too prevalent in society today (except the bigfoot thing, those people are still on the fringes thankfully).
I'll say it again, reality is reality. I don't begrudge people for their faith. I have Christian friends, Hindu friends, Muslim friends. The reason they are friends is they don't push their faith and are overbearing with it, which I would begrudge and they would not be my friends. At most they pray before a meal and I respect that. Or they invite me to an event where there might be a token religious activity taking place and that's fine too - no different than going to a sporting event in US or a movie in India and having a token patriotic activity take place beforehand (singing of their national anthems).
We've had healthy discussions on it but it never changes anyone's opinion. Yet all our realities are the same everyday - the only difference is some believe in only jesus, some in only Krishna (and a hundred other gods), some in Muhammed and jesus and some in nothing.
The other thing I begrudge is when those who have faith think those without their specific faith are awful people doomed to hell or pick and choose which "reality" stories to pick out of their holy books to live by and which to ignore and which to govern by. Then mandate everyone must adhere to that (except themselves of course because they're the ones in power and can do whatever). As if I can't possibly be a good person because I don't believe in their magical diety that they NEED to believe in to be good and not stray to the dark side.
If there is god, and they want me to suffer for all eternity because I didn't have faith in that particular diety, despite being a decent/moral/ethical human, then that's not a god I'd personally want to believe in anyways, because they're not merciful or all loving like we're told they are. They don't love all their children apparently, just specific ones who truly believe or the many who pretend to believe for politics or agendas. Every religion has that latter group who are allowed to run amok by the actually believers because it helps their cause.
It's ironic the one constant all modern religions have with the old ancient religions is they still go to war over their one true god and kill for them. It's the one and only constant among all the religions throughout history. Shameful.
Will say it one last time. Reality is reality. Faith is faith.
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This is an excerpt taken from a nice source to answer pressing questions specifically related to Christianity, Got Questions: Faith has many dimensions. One crucial facet of faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” Biblical faith takes present-day possession of things not yet seen with our eyes but hoped for in the future. What God has revealed in His Word becomes our inner reality today. Rather than looking at life with our earthly eyes, faith sees through the lens of God’s promises.
With that, it can be seen how I may perceive it as a reality. But I do get what you mean. However (and I may be wrong here), I would think most people with some form of religion have it as part of their reality. Just as much as any emotional or physical condition can be a reality, so too is your spiritual side. And you have stated God to be non-real. But as I've previously stated, He is as real as you or me, at least to me. Perhaps our understanding of real or non-real is different. Jesus lived and died and God exists without a shadow of a doubt, and that for me is real.
I'm not going to go into mercy and all that. There's lots to read up on that with relation to God from the Christian religion. Got Questions is a great resource. I debated with Pastors and questioned God and why he did certain things, with mercy being a topic on a lot of things (because yeah, I wouldn't have maybe did all the things he did to people lol). And after all that, I reached my own conclusion. I believe Him to be just and merciful, loving and kind.
I've also, and still do, have friends from other religions. If anything, they confirm how faith is part of reality. Some of them have their lives planned out, and even have arranged marriages according to their faith. They have eating patterns and traditions according to their faith. They can't participate in certain activities on certain days and all sorts that affect their everyday life, and that is their reality.
Maybe our understanding of reality is different. I think what I mean by mine is made clear. How would you define reality for each person? Or do you define it as something more general that applies to everyone?
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I think both of you are sorta circling a central theme.
There is only one reality. We all live in it.
However, the perception of reality is definitely different from person to person.
Some people have a grounded perception and some people prefer a more speculative or fanciful perception of the world.
The belief in things you can't provide proof of fall into the latter category. Whether it is gods or vampires or what have you. Whereas recognizing that a table is a table because the table is actually there for us to feel and see, falls into the former category. I'm sure we all have a dominant side but pull at least a little from both. For example, I personally am a bigfoot enthusiast, and I actually spend a lot of time in forests IRL. ;)
As a side note, I once read a book called "The Last Days of Christ the Vampire" by J.G. Eccarius. I loved that book, but it was objectively one of the worst examples of editing I've ever seen in a published work. The ideas presented within gave the nonsensical source material a more plausible explanation than what we're handed IRL, while still being ridiculous, and made me chuckle.
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Hope I didn't come off as argumentative. I'd still like to hear what Carmah meant by reality. Just interested to hear, if nothing else. But I believe you've got it quite right :)
Do you believe bigfoot to exist? It feels like those TV shows do you a disservice as it makes me believe less and less in bigfoot lol. Have you found anything while out in the forest? It would be an incredible animal if it is indeed a real one.
As a side note, and relating to what has just passed (Easter), Jesus died and was resurrected and one of the disciples did not believe until they saw Him alive with their own eyes. So we are called to believe, even without seeing (which can be really hard sometimes, as it's especially hard to have faith something will change when you're in the wars lol. But at least I don't question or struggle to believe that God exists anymore). Speculative or fanciful is perhaps not the words I'd use, but I think your description of reality is quite good otherwise.
Another side note: I do appreciate the calm responses. I know religion can become a heated topic, so thanks on your end friend :)
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It's definitely difficult to take most of the bigfoot shows seriously. Much less podcasts and such. You get a lot of scammers and a lot of crazy in those. Plus, having a weekend jaunt into a forest doesn't really make a person a "researcher". It makes you a hiker and camper, lol. So, I can appreciate where you're coming from. But what you also find is most people who are abjectly against the claim that bigfoot wander around out there, do so from the comfort of their own home and really don't spend much time in the wilderness, if any.
When you do spend a lot of time in forests and especially in the backcountry, you see and hear and smell a lot of interesting things that give rise to the idea that some unusual things happen in areas where people aren't typically present. What are those things? That is certainly the topic of much debate. But the fact that weird shit happens out there isn't really debatable.
Me personally, I have a wolfdog, and she and I spend a lot of time outdoors by virtue of her being a wolfdog and needing that in her life. And we have seen, heard, and smelled a lot of unusual things, lol. Some were scary. Some were just weird. Some were clearly manmade scenarios. Some weren't. Some were legitimately just things like bears. Some weren't. We actually even encountered a wolverine once (who was fortunately completely uninterested in us). We GTFO'd super quick, lol.
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They do give it a bad rep. But I've always believed other things exist that are still undiscovered. Even aliens for example. Mostly, I believe these things because it is the most fun way to live life. The thought that other beings are out in the universe is rather exciting and it doesn't harm anyone in thinking that.
But it would be interesting to hear all that you've experienced while out in the wild. I grew up on a farm in a very luscious area full of life. I learned a lot and while I did not see anything new, even after so many years I still find things whenever I visit home. So I believe you when you say there's other things. Big, beautiful, often mysterious world we live in :)
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You mean when people didn't hold hands, or kissed their partner on the street, back to the puritan times?
Because it's already happening every day, and almost every single piece of media for a looong while, but that's the "okay" sexuality, because heterosexual.
I'm talking about parades and over the top glorification of who you sleep with.
These moral outrage about "public sexuality" is just a dog whistle for homophobes, I bet you don't complain about random kissing couples.
I actually don't wanna see people displaying that. It doesn't matter to me if they are heterosexual or not.
But is it okay to refer back to the conversion camps that are cruel, inhuman, doesn't work, and leave people with lasting trauma? Where is the kindness, the compassion in that that you preach? Or does it only extend to the people you deem worthy of it?
I don't agree and condone forceful practices, either be it conversion camps or forcefully converting your children into a set of beliefs. I think everybody should have the free will to choose if they want to seek help and if conversion is the way, like therapy, the person can willingly opt in for this. Any Christian or other religious believer that thinks it's okay to forcefully make someone the way you want is making a mistake. So yeah, people have made mistakes in the name of religion. I'm not just gonna deny that.
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Nobody willing opts for conversion therapy. They do so under pressure from their family, their church, their peers or from internalized homophobia that was beaten or harassed into their brains.
Nobody should be made to feel like who they are is worthy only of contempt or at best reluctant tolerance. Of course they want to be anything but gay. Doesn't make conversion therapy more valid or less forceful.
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I agree. This is valid both ways. As parents we can guide our children, but we can't change them and make them as an extension of ourselves. I don't doubt that any kind of messaging can affect a child's upbringing and wrongly understand themselves and the world around them. I see and hear both sides of the spectrum. I was stating just what the Bible and other scriptures point out.
I might have came across as judgemental. I'm by no means perfect.
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I was stating just what the Bible and other scriptures point out.
I wish more Christians would do that. It seems like most people in the US who call themselves Christians are quoting the Old Testament a lot and ignoring all the parts about forgiveness and hating the sin but loving the sinner.
I think Pope Francis was a good reminder of that.
And again, this is within the frame of mind that being queer is a sin and that's not how I think but if people are taught this, at least it would be great if they also remembered that doesn't mean they should hate themselves, or others for it.
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I wish more Christians would do that. It seems like most people in the US who call themselves Christians are quoting the Old Testament a lot and ignoring all the parts about forgiveness and hating the sin but loving the sinner.
I think Pope Francis was a good reminder of that.
The Old Testament is a reminder and a confirmation of the new covenant established by Jesus and the fulfillment of prophecies. Some of the old laws don't apply to Gentiles (anybody but Jews), and despite some aspects still being present in the New Testament, it doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from what the Old Testament teaches. I am learning every day to be more like Christ. I really think I came on the wrong foot with Adam, Foxpile, and PossiblePsycho. I was just trying to explain what the Bible teaches, without trying to judge anybody. We are called not to judge, or else we will be judged by the same.
If we were to take Old Testatement to a T, I think we can all agree that non-believers, law breakers and immoral people would be stoned to death according to the law of Moses. We are called to love our neighbors, and show them compassion, but not hide the truth or indulge in the same way as others do so we don't fall short from the grace of God and also be punished for our sins.
And again, this is within the frame of mind that being queer is a sin and that's not how I think but if people are taught this, at least it would be great if they also remembered that doesn't mean they should hate themselves, or others for it.
No, I'd say that from my understanding is not the problem of how you are born or eventually grow up as. Some people might be born into it, others possibly end up choosing that due to some traumatic events in their childhood. Temptation and having same sex attraction is NOT A SIN. It's the act upon those temptations that is condemned in the Bible. Jesus was tempted by Satan, but did not give in. That confirms that temptation is not perceived as a sin, nor is a taught about a person, but how we act upon it. Now, some things, like hate in our hearts even toward our own brothers, are associated with murdering that person, spiritually speaking.
"Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him." - 1 John 3:15
I'd be honest with you, if we were to talk about this 2 years ago, I'd never speak the way I do today. I always tried to be open-minded and respectful towards other people. Things have changed a lot for me and my view points. That doesn't mean I'm just gonna put a blinder and not listen to other people's opinions of what is wrong and right. As Christians, we need to be more understanding, more kind and loving, but in the same time, be the light of the world. Anyway, I feel I'm overexplaining, and for some people whatever the heck I'm saying might seem I'm wack or something. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
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I'd be honest with you, if we were to talk about this 2 years ago, I'd never speak the way I do today. I always tried to be open-minded and respectful towards other people.
It's good to read. Minds are like parachutes, they only work when open ;)
More seriously though, I get what you were saying and I'm glad you are expanding your horizons. I wish more people would and I hope Pope Francis helped some on that journey.
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Temptation and having same sex attraction is NOT A SIN. It's the act upon those temptations that is condemned in the Bible.
I find it very interesting you use the term "condemned by the Bible" and not plainly a sin because when you're completely honest with yourself I bet you can't call it a sin without feeling at least a tiny bit disgusted by yourself.
So what? It is ok to be gay as long as they never indulge in non-platonic love and the physical manifestation thereof?
How about we don't hold gay people by the same standards most people would use to assess the threat level of a pedophile.
I could dig up probably several hundred examples that illustrate the Bible is a product of its time and most of it doesn't appy to modern life anymore but I'm not bored or dogmatic enough to do that. God doesn't talk to us through thousand of years old scripture - he talks to us through common sense and compassion.
Source: Somebody who used to be roman catholic for longer than the interval between two seasons of Stranger Things 😅
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So what? It is ok to be gay as long as they never indulge in non-platonic love and the physical manifestation thereof?
Pretty much. Like any other temptation, we are asked to resist it. The denying of ourselves is complicated, but we're asked to do it.
If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. - Matthew 16:24-25
How about we don't hold gay people by the same standards most people would use to assess the threat level of a pedophile.
It's not the same thing. I believe it's viewed as a punishable offense in the eyes of God. But all things can be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. - Matthew 18:6
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I could dig up probably several hundred examples that illustrate the Bible is a product of its time and most of it doesn't appy to modern life anymore but I'm not bored or dogmatic enough to do that. God doesn't talk to us through thousand of years old scripture - he talks to us through common sense and compassion.
Trust me, you can find pieces of wisdom to this day that apply to day things that Cristians live by. Just because we follow the bible it doesn't mean we write on stone, fight with sticks and dress like cavemen. There's been centuries of growth and adaptability, and because of Crhstianity you have today the things you and I take for granted. Freedom of speech, abolishment of slavery, liberty in expression, faith and tolerance, diversity and inclusion, philosophy, medicine, and many more. The Bible does not claim to resolve all issues and solve all problems, but it wouldn't be a book used and read by thousands of people to this date because it's just an old book written more than 2000 years ago.
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Pretty much. Like any other temptation, we are asked to resist it. The denying of ourselves is complicated, but we're asked to do it.
You got me curious there..
If I understand you correctly, you call physical love between homosexuals a temptation, right? But it's not between heterosexuals? Because of the possible reproduction? Is it a temptation if heterosexuals use contraception? Should reproduction be emotionless? Why does our body react in such a positive way then? Just to have a temptation? Is it a kind of trial?
How many unwanted kids had suffered before modern contraception methods were invented? May only rich people have regular sex, since they can afford to have that many children?
I somehow can accept that rough, lustful or kinky sex would be viewed as a sin by religious people, but loving or caring sex definitely shouldn't. And the latter happens between all humans, no matter their sexual orientation. Sex isn't the most important part of a loving relationship, but if it's bad, one-sided or missing, the relationship is incomplete. What would be the difference to platonic relationships with friends otherwise?
Maybe I got you wrong here, because further up you said it wouldn't be an issue, if it stayed private. Personally, I haven''t encountered a gay couple making out publicly (not counting kissing & holding hands there, sorry). Those parades you mentioned aren't meant to show or even advertise a certain sexuality, they are a demonstration against discrimination and a celebration of not feeling ashamed anymore and having overcome some obstacles in society already.
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If I understand you correctly, you call physical love between homosexuals a temptation, right? But it's not between heterosexuals?
Very good question. The Bible claims that Man was made for Woman and vice-a-versa. Other sexual attractions are viewed as immoral. Maybe I formulated it wrong.
Because of the possible reproduction?
I'd say yes. God created the two for reproductive purposes, but sex is not viewed as immoral if it's confined in marriage unless that is performed immorally. I won't go into details as I personally don't know what are the details of it.
Should reproduction be emotionless?
No, we are asked to love our wife/husbands and not withhold ourselves from pleasing them if that's what your asking.
Why does our body react in such a positive way then? Just to have a temptation?
I honestly do not know. I do not know why it is the way it is. Everybody has temptations. Pornography is another thing that is confined to something everybody struggles with. It's something viewed as adulterous and is a sin, according to the Bible.
How many unwanted kids had suffered before modern contraception methods were invented? May only rich people have regular sex, since they can afford to have that many children?
I thought the same initially, as I converted that you're supposed to only have sex to reproduce. But it's not the case. Sex is considered sacred and can be enjoyed between a husband and a wife. You shouldn't hold yourself from it, so there's mixed opinions on contraceptions. Catholic believe it's a sin to use any form, but other denominations believe that it is not, and there can be methods to avoid it.
I somehow can accept that rough, lustful or kinky sex would be viewed as a sin by religious people, but loving or caring sex definitely shouldn't. And the latter happens between all humans, no matter their sexual orientation. Sex isn't the most important part of a loving relationship, but if it's bad, one-sided or missing, the relationship is incomplete. What would be the difference to platonic relationships with friends otherwise?
Yes, as I said before, sex outside of marriage is viewed as adultery and it's considered a sin. Sex is not bad. It became glorified and unpuriffied by many, but in the origins of it, it was viewed differently. I had a hard time coming to therms myself initially because I viewed sex as something of a more difficult thing to view as pure lol.
Maybe I got you wrong here, because further up you said it wouldn't be an issue, if it stayed private. Personally, I haven''t encountered a gay couple making out publicly (not counting kissing & holding hands there, sorry). Those parades you mentioned aren't meant to show or even advertise a certain sexuality, they are a demonstration against discrimination and a celebration of not feeling ashamed anymore and having overcome some obstacles in society already.
No doubt. I mean, I might have come across as something I didn't mean to. I don't think we should discriminate, hate, or treat people who have same sex attraction. I think it's not Christian, because it means you're judging them, and we're not allowed to. I think Christians done good and bad things in the name of religion. You can have overly religious people and people that follow Christ, but not the laws. I think you can fall in quite easily in being religious because you fear to not make a mistake, so studying and reading the scriptures can make you hyper-analytical on things. I try as much as possible not to do that. I'm happy to be corrected.
Now, I do invite everybody to give the Bible a read, at least once. See what are the values and information they gather from the book. Like you, I've had issues with Christianity because I thought I was well informed about what it teaches and what it doesn't. You'd be surprised to find out that as humans we have not changed some of the aspects for more than 2000 years by much. We might have changed our viewpoints a bit, and society has taken different directions, but overall, at it's core, we are pretty similar today to what we were more than 2000 years ago. It's a fascinating book, even if you take it for the historical evidences that provides about events that happened back then that defined our civilisation in the west and other parts of the world.
Thank you for your time and I hope I managed to answer some questions. I am still learning, and I hope I don't come across as rude.
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Thank you for your explanation and taking time for it!
The Bible claims that Man was made for Woman and vice-a-versa.
Yeah, I know that part, but it doesn't properly exclude other relationships. Apparently there are other, more precise parts in it though. Here's a good listing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality
If homosexuality was new, we could just say "They didn't know stuff back then", but it isn't. To me it appears that it's mostly based on reproduction and majority of society reasons. Which is kinda contradictionary, when love, affection and even sex are okay, but between homosexuals it isn't. Imagine a bisexual person who could do both, fulfilling reproduction on one day, but also sinning the other day. Of course that can't happen, because monogamy exists and sex is only allowed within marriage.
Well, it doesn't have to make sense for me, I'm lost anyway, but it's important to me that it doesn't lead to discrimination.
I read many parts of the bible back when I was a kid/teen, but even if it does picture some issues within society well, it's just not appealing to me. I'm more into science fiction than history. I don't hate Christianity or other religions, yet I'm sceptical if the good deeds done in the name of religion outweigh the bad ones.
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Well, it doesn't have to make sense for me, I'm lost anyway, but it's important to me that it doesn't lead to discrimination.
Well, here I have to disagree. Jesus Christ surely promised one thing: that if we trust in Him and proclaim that He is God in the flesh, and that God the Father sent Him to die for our sins and accept Him in your heart, we are saved. We are saved through grace and the mercy of God. It doesn't matter what your past was, how you lived, or who you are today. We are all imperfect and sinners in the eyes of God.
We are told that if we put our trust in Jesus, follow His guidance, and keep God's commandments, we will be saved. I am by no means more privileged than you or any other Christian. We are all, and I mean ALL, capable of being saved.
So, if I or any other Christian came across the wrong way and told you that you'll go to hell, I want to acknowledge that. I've been reflecting over the past few days on what I said and how I addressed it, and I’ll be honest, I think I made some mistakes, and I sincerely apologize for that. But please, don’t condemn yourself or believe you’re not worthy of God’s salvation. He loves you and will forgive you if you seek Him, ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and repent of your sins.
I read many parts of the bible back when I was a kid/teen, but even if it does picture some issues within society well, it's just not appealing to me. I'm more into science fiction than history. I don't hate Christianity or other religions, yet I'm sceptical if the good deeds done in the name of religion outweigh the bad ones.
Christians are not perfect people. Anyone who acts as if they are is only fooling themselves, and in doing so, they risk sinning as well. Christians are simply people who want to follow Christ, who is our model and example in this world.
Often, people fall away from faith in God because they look at Christians and what Christianity appears to represent. It's either seen as a group of fools following a book written thousands of years ago, believing in fables and things that can't be 100% proven, or it's seen as full of hypocrites who say one thing and do another. I don’t blame them for feeling that way. I've had my own struggles with Christianity. To be honest, I initially struggled to accept and even call myself a Christian because I was ashamed of the label it sometimes carries.
So, all in all, I encourage you to seek out the truth for yourself. Come as you are, imperfect and broken. In time, you will find restoration and wholeness. Don’t worry about who you are or what you've done. God loves you, and I love you too.
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Sorry, I guess I should have worded that differently. I meant that I'm a lost cause for the Christian church. They won't get me back. Not only because I prefer science and facts, but also because of the big issues within the organisation. I totally get concepts like hope or positive thinking, I'm mostly optimistic myself, there are positive group dynamics (also negative ones), but I don't need that backstory or any deity for this.
I might be a sinner, but I don't believe in it anymore, so neither in hell. I'm judging myself and try to outweigh mistakes and pain I caused to others as long as I can. If anyone else wants to judge then, feel free, but as stardust it won't bother me anymore.
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Sorry, I guess I should have worded that differently. I meant that I'm a lost cause for the Christian church.
The Church will always welcome you with open arms, and to be honest, you DON'T NEED a church to be saved. Salvation is not done through that, but through faith alone. Works can't save you, but works through faith do. If someone told you that you have to go to church to be saved, they are mistaking or intentionally lying to you. Initally churches started as families gathered in their own homes, read the scriptures and worshiped God. It doesn't have to be in a special place to do so.
Not only because I prefer science and facts, but also because of the big issues within the organisation.
That's okay. Science does not necessarily contradict religion unless you take every single thing written in the Bible literally, which isn't true. Some parts of it are poetry, others are pieces of advice and wisdom, others are laws and others are historical events. Religion studies is a different field, while science is another. I myself love science and love new discoveries. I don't look for contradictions in the two because I'll just trap myself in that mindset that there's division. There are plenty of Christian scientists who believe in God and follow their work. You don't have to follow the organisation and how they do things. That's just laws and traditions. Believing has nothing to do with that. In today's age, you can get your historical facts, archeological discoveries, your questions answered, and your preaching done via the internet. It doesn't have to be set in stone on a specific place.
I might be a sinner, but I don't believe in it anymore, so neither in hell. I'm judging myself and try to outweigh mistakes and pain I caused to others as long as I can. If anyone else wants to judge then, feel free, but as stardust it won't bother me anymore.
We all are. You don't have to self-judge yourself. I've done that for many years. It's the reason I didn't want to go back: I felt I was not worthy. But I came to the conclusion that if we can't accept God who is All-Forgiving and can't forgive us because we can't, we are calling Him a liar. He promised that He keeps his word.
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Yeah, I'm aware that the church isn't needed, it's just the usual go-to. However, on my own I can also believe in Bigfoot, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or even transform my own fantasies into my personal religion. No rulesets, no hypocrisy, no holier than thou people telling you what's allowed and what's not. Why salvation if I don't believe in an afterlife? The current life is what I can improve and I'm trying.
The contradictions aren't between religion and science only. The bible is full of it on its own, due to different writers, their viewpoints and hearsay. Why have rules, plagues, death sentence and hell on one hand and endless love and forgiveness on the other hand?
You had brought up free will before as a reason for no intervention by god, but total anti-authoritarianism doesn't work well with kid's education. Yes, parents have to let go at times, because otherwise they risk losing the connection completely and some lessons have to be learned on your own. Yet there have to be limits when things get out of control, e.g. suicide attempts, self harm or to towards others, excessive drug abuse. Now looking at history of humankind, I can directly think of several situations which really could have needed an intervention (WW1, WW2, nuclear bombs, extinction of other species).
I can bend my mind by doing puzzles or enjoying fantasy/science fiction media, which usually is more interesting, because it offers new things. I can try to be a good person, just because I like other people, out of altruism or because I expect something in return. When I want forgiveness or absolution, I should ask the people I mistreated directly. I judge myself to learn from the past and grow as a person.
In the end I don't need a deity, church or religion. If it's actually there, I'm happy for you guys, but please keep me out of this.
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It's okay. I understand. I wish you the best of luck in your journey. No hard feelings whatsoever. 🫱🏻🫲🏻
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Not sure how to feel about being thrown into the same bag as murderers just because I'm queer to be honest.
Like, I'm not daft, I get that you were just listing "sins", but I think we can agree that there's a sea of difference between the gravity of those things you listed. And if you ask me, same sex attraction doesn't even belong on that list given that it's just a characteristic, not a flaw much less a "sin".
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Me neither. I would not view it the same, but we are told that it's viewed as detestable in the eyes of God. If it was by me, or other people, it shouldn't be a problem or at least if it doesn't affect us, why worry about other people. Lying is not equally punishable with murder in our society, but it's viewed differently. I'm only explaining what the scriptures are mentioning.
It can hurt sometimes even for someone who follows the scripture because they can be sinners too. Christians are not special in any case. Whoever thinks they are they make a big mistake. I'm just pointing out that based on those aspects sin is a sin, no matter if we view it any higher or lower in our society. I wish it was different.
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There are several ways to be a Christian, but you have chosen the version of Christianity that is bigoted and hateful. You have chosen this. You can't say 'I wish it was different', because it can be. And it is. I know plenty of good Christian people that accepts people's differences. Even cherish that we are different. Isn't God supposed to be full of love?
I used to be a part of a weird form for pentecostal church in my youth, and I kept praying for a way to kill the demon inside of me that made me a lesbian. I am glad I turned my back to that religious hate before it turned into religious trauma.
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There are several ways to be a Christian, but you have chosen the version of Christianity that is bigoted and hateful. You have chosen this. You can't say 'I wish it was different', because it can be. And it is. I know plenty of good Christian people that accepts people's differences. Even cherish that we are different.
I don't follow a denomination that you consider bigoted and hateful. I've read this in the Bible and some aspects are written black on white. I don't hate you or other people just because I mention what is viewed as right or wrong. I've said it to adulterous people and to liers to stop doing it just as much. It doesn't come from a place of hate. Christians who ignore sin and endorse it are called lukewarm Christians. They are neither hot nor cold in their viewpoints. They just accept not saying things because they don't wish to speak the truth of what is written to not offend others.
Isn't God supposed to be full of love?
Yes, but also justice.For example, your parents can love you and still correct you. It doesn't mean they don't love you. Loving someone doesn't mean you have to be complacent in their mistakes.
I used to be a part of a weird form for pentecostal church in my youth, and I kept praying for a way to kill the demon inside of me that made me a lesbian. I am glad I turned my back to that religious hate before it turned into religious trauma.
I'm genuinely sorry you have felt that way. There's nothing wrong with being lesbian. What is viewed wrongly is the practice of it. For example, looking at another woman lustfully is just as much of a struggle for some men that are Christians. It's not like it's easy to deal with temptations and urges, but it's more about giving in them.
I'm sorry if I come across in a certain way. I need to reflect the way I approach the subject. I just want you to know that I don't hate you or other people choosing a different lifestyle than myself.
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You remind me of my best friend's mother, she keeps telling that my friend has only herself to blame for everything bad happening to her (including her son being heavily autistic, her own health issues and her husband abandoning her and her child for a young, problemless woman) - because she stopped going to church, and "a sin is a sin". She verbally abuses her daughter on a daily basis, doesn't lift a finger to help her with the boy and considers herself an awesome person because she believes in god, and my friend is apparently a horrible sinner because, for instance, she supports LGBT rights, and god doesn't approve of that.
That doesn't mean all Christians are like that, obviously. I used to have an elderly friend, an Orthodox Christian, who had a truly beautiful soul. She didn't have any issues with minor things like sexual orientation or this or that religious belief/atheism, but she was a very strict woman and expected everyone to do their best to become a decent person. So yeah, you can be a Christian and be awesome at the same time. Or you can choose to be a bigot and a hypocrite.
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You remind me of my best friend's mother, she keeps telling that my friend has only herself to blame for everything bad happening to her (including her son being heavily autistic, her own health issues and her husband abandoning her and her child for a young, problemless woman) - because she stopped going to church, and "a sin is a sin". She verbally abuses her daughter on a daily basis, doesn't lift a finger to help her with the boy and considers herself an awesome person because she believes in god, and my friend is apparently a horrible sinner because, for instance, she supports LGBT rights, and god doesn't approve of that.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this. I would never do that or treat someone that way. It is wrong. I'm not afraid to call it out for what it is.
That doesn't mean all Christians are like that, obviously. I used to have an elderly friend, an Orthodox Christian, who had a truly beautiful soul. She didn't have any issues with minor things like sexual orientation or this or that religious belief/atheism, but she was a very strict woman and expected everyone to do their best to become a decent person. So yeah, you can be a Christian and be awesome at the same time. Or you can choose to be a bigot and a hypocrite.
No doubt. Being Christian doesn't automatically make you perfect. I doubt it will. It's why I avoided Christianity for 10 years, actually, because of hypocrisy. The problem with Christians is that sometimes they have done wrong things in the name of God.
The reality is that Christians comes in various flavious and some people will tell you the truth, despite knowing they might have hurt your feelings, all this being covered in good intentions. Others will just allow it because they would rather not share it than hurt your feelings. Some are concerned about their soul more than you think.
Listen, I think I'm coming across wrongly. I need to reflect more on my actions and the things I say. I don't want to come across as hateful. I am not gonna just say that Christians didn't do wrong and how we handle things is correct. The focus should not be what Christians do, but what the leader does. I'm talking about Jesus here. We can debate this forever because we are human and we are imperfect. I know why some people hate Christians. It's because they come across wrongly. I apologize if I've offended you or others.
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Jesus first saved the adulteress before telling her to sin no more. Who is always lecturing others in the Gospels before saving them (and in the end don't save them) ?
That's the whole debate here between those who think faith saves and those who think it's works.
Catholics think it's mostly works.
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You're right. Maybe I do come across the wrong way. Maybe I need to work on myself more and stop telling people what they should do until I fix my issues. 🤔
That's the whole debate here between those who think faith saves and those who think it's works.
Catholics think it's mostly works.
It works through faith, as we are told. We can have faith, but if we don't change our actions, what does faith even do?
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I'm trying to be better. I don't think I'm always right in my approach, so I have to be more mindful of how I say or do things.
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I'm far (and it's an euphemism) from perfect too.
But i come from a catholic family (post Vatican 2) and i can tell you that lessons almost made us atheists in the end.
I've been atheist long years before coming back (and i'm a religious intermittent so not a good one), because i've been lucky enough to have a few living examples in my circle.
A great-aunt, formerly a nun, who spent her life offering all her time and her shirt to others, and who ultimately went so far (which i wouldn't do i'm not a good catholic ;) ) as to donate her body to science. She carried the wishes of her Muslim friends to the Lourdes pilgrimage. One of her muslim friends came to her funeral mass when she was forbidden to do so.
And another lady who picked up a Muslim girl fleeing a forced marriage on the side of the road, hid her for a year and helped her change her identity to escape her family.
Imagine if they had lectured instead what the result would have been.
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I'm new in my faith as well. Been a Christian for a year and a half now. I should say. I've not been an atheist, but rather a spiritual person. Always believed there is a higher being, didn't matter to me much at the time that it was Christian or Muslim. I avoided religion like the plague. Still do. Often, I'm worried that I might misunderstand it wrongly and become overly religious. Despite what I said earlier, I genuinely care about people. I have no problem hanging out with people who view the world differently because I think we can all learn from one another in one way or another. Just because I say this or that is wrong, and comes as a lecture, it doesn't mean I hate the person. Never did, never will.
A great-aunt, formerly a nun, who spent her life offering all her time and her shirt to others, and who ultimately went so far (which i wouldn't do i'm not a good catholic ;) ) as to donate her body to science. She carried the wishes of her Muslim friends to the Lourdes pilgrimage. One of her muslim friends came to her funeral mass when she was forbidden to do so.
And another lady who picked up a Muslim girl fleeing a forced marriage on the side of the road, hid her for a year and helped her change her identity to escape her family.
Imagine if they had lectured instead what the result would have been.
That is beautiful. I think we can all learn from that. 😊
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especially when saying good things about soviets...
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And the last he said was to stop the fire, release prisoners and let the food and drink arrive to the population.
So clearly against the genocide.
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Yes. And a lot of American "Christians" hated him for it. Like, he didn't take a political side. He was on the side of human beings, the return of hostages and an end to the violence in Gaza.
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We shouldn't as Christians. We need to take the side of kindness and compassion for one another. It doesn't matter if it's Jew or Palestinian. There's people suffering. Sometimes it's not about who's right and who's wrong, but if the innocents are involved in this and do they need to face the same treatment? Absolutely not!
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The world truly is a sad place when compassion and violence are somehow just seen as "political statements".
I didn't know much about him as a pope but I feel like he had the courage to speak out about things the Church has always maintained a "neutral" politically correct stand about. And more than anything else, when he made mistakes, and he did, he had the courage to take responsibility for them and to say he had made a mistake, which is more than can be said about 99.9 of heads of states.
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did we fucking kill the pope???
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You know if I was feeling less charitable I'd say America has its own little version of Liz Truss (aka former British PM & one of the last people to visit the Queen days before she died)......Truss didn't last much longer herself afterwards...... 😏.......one can hope I suppose....
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Where I work we had a storewide wager at the time, we were glad when she got the shove because the odds had sunk so low we (the winners) risked having to pay out instead to the one tragic manager who said she'd outlast it 😁
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Saw it on the news earlier this morning when I woke up, basically every TV channel here is covering his passing. Pretty shocking when the last I've heard yesterday was that he seemed to be recovering, but not exactly surprising when he had been suffering from pulmonary diseases for most of his life. He was very much a generally liked figure here, frequently being called one of the most historically important Argentinians, and he also seemed to be a genuinely good guy.
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I'm genuinely sad, and I'm an atheist. He was a really good man who did his best to turn that monster of the Catholic Church to humanism. Sure, he wasn't perfect, I didn't agree with him on many things, but he was a true revolutionary nonetheless, and while it's impossible to actually change something so ancient, huge and rigid in just a few years, he did a lot. And I strongly suspect that we'll get some conservative, if not downright reactionary asshole next, yeah.
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As a gay atheist I'm not going to pretend that there wouldn't have been ideological issues that would have made afternoon tea difficult but it seems very much that for the most part his heart and many of his deeds were in the right place. At the very least he put more than lip service into the idea that the church was meant to be a vessel to lift people out of poverty and suffering and his acknowledgement of the dangerous world that climate change will create for the people of the world was refreshing.
As for his much highlighted "progressive" movements well everything is relative, and for a church that takes the idea that being monolithic for over 1500 years as a badge of honour, any movement I suppose is a positive. It will make the conclave interesting though, I genuinely wonder if many of the Cardinals know how much of a turning point the Catholic church is really at right now.
Whatever the case, hopefully he's at peace now and hopeful thoughts for the Catholic faithful at what must be a difficult time.
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Man, I wonder how relevant the people who made the movie Conclave thought it was going to be but it's pretty much a documentary at this point.
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i'm a bit confused how come your sexual preference is related with any matter you brought.
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Really? You've never noticed that the Catholic Church as an institution has some history & issues about homosexuality and that it might have a bearing on how some people might respond? Seriously? 😕
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I knew the end is near after seeing his last public appearance yesterday. Didn't expect it to be THIS near though. A kind man and far better Pope than the bigots ruling over the Holy See in the last few centuries. I don't think his successor will be able to fill in Francis' modest shoes. They might try it, as a "PR stunt" nonetheless. But it won't be sincere.
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Weird one, hard to argue he wasn't a step up from what came before but it's equally a struggle to see wall-to-wall coverage praising a guy who single handedly sacrificed so many to AIDS in the name of papal infallibility and shuffled abusers out of the public eye rather than let them face justice.
Can only hope we eventually look back on him as the first of the reformers, rather than a tragically weak figure who opened the door to a Fidesz-branded lunatic.
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Was Francis the most progressive pope they had so far? He seemed better than Pope Sidious at least. I have a feeling the next pope is going to be super regressive.
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Well there has been 226 or so, so far? But we hardly know them all.
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If by progressive you mean saying the soviets have right to invade Ukraine and slaughtering innocents then you are right...
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Did he say that? That's pretty messed up. But I was talking about him being more sympathetic to LGBT.
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They should mix things up a bit and choose a Protestant as their pope.
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I'm not Catholic, but I really did like Pope Francis. He seemed to truly care about people and live by the words and teachings of Jesus that he believed in. He didn't focus on the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic church, but rather upon the service that Jesus always intended for the church to provide. It's sad to see him go.
I hope that the Catholic church can find someone of equal calibre to become the new Pope.
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Pope Francis died on Easter Monday, April 21, 2025, at the age of 88 at his residence in the Vatican's Casa Santa Marta.
By Devin Watkins
At 9:45 AM, Cardinal Kevin Farrell, Camerlengo of the Apostolic Chamber, announced the death of Pope Francis from the Casa Santa Marta with these words:
"Dearest brothers and sisters, with deep sorrow I must announce the death of our Holy Father Francis. At 7:35 this morning, the Bishop of Rome, Francis, returned to the house of the Father. His entire life was dedicated to the service of the Lord and of His Church. He taught us to live the values of the Gospel with fidelity, courage, and universal love, especially in favor of the poorest and most marginalized. With immense gratitude for his example as a true disciple of the Lord Jesus, we commend the soul of Pope Francis to the infinite merciful love of the One and Triune God."
The Pope was admitted to the Agostino Gemelli Polyclinic Hospital on Friday, February 14, 2025, after suffering from a bout of bronchitis for several days.
Pope Francis’ clinical situation gradually worsened, and his doctors diagnosed bilateral pneumonia on Tuesday, February 18.
After 38 days in hospital, the late Pope returned to his Vatican residence at the Casa Santa Marta to continue his recovery.
In 1957, in his early 20s, Jorge Mario Bergoglio underwent surgery in his native Argentina to remove a portion of his lung that had been affected by a severe respiratory infection.
As he aged, Pope Francis frequently suffered bouts of respiratory illnesses, even cancelling a planned visit to the United Arab Emirates in November 2023 due to influenza and lung inflammation.
In April 2024, the late Pope Francis approved an updated edition of the liturgical book for papal funeral rites, which will guide the funeral Mass which has yet to be announced.
The second edition of the Ordo Exsequiarum Romani Pontificis introduces several new elements, including how the Pope’s mortal remains are to be handled after death.
The ascertainment of death takes place in the chapel, rather than in the room where he died, and his body is immediately placed inside the coffin.
According to Archbishop Diego Ravelli, Master of Apostolic Ceremonies, the late Pope Francis had requested that the funeral rites be simplified and focused on expressing the faith of the Church in the Risen Body of Christ.
“The renewed rite,” said Archbishop Ravelli, “seeks to emphasise even more that the funeral of the Roman Pontiff is that of a pastor and disciple of Christ and not of a powerful person of this world.”.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2025-04/pope-francis-dies-on-easter-monday-aged-88.html
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